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: In regards to the leaning.... : I have known people who did Yang style who straightened their back knee in Gong Bu stance too much. The result was that they either ended up straightening their back from the lower back instead of from the tucked in pelvis or they put the back in a line with the leg. After many months of straightening from the low back, they ended up having low back pain. : In external styles, such as northern fists, the stances are much lower and the back leg is straightened completely. Such a straightening in Taijiquan would make the joint static. In the low posture in norhtern fist, getting down to the correct level with the back leg straightened actually causes the pelvis to tuck in as it should. It is the higher stance that allows the pelvis to not align. : Now if you can straighten the back knee and tuck the pelvis in fully, you are more flexible in that area than most people who do Yang style. : Having made this trip down body mechanics road, I will say that I have also noted that if the person straightening the knee experiments further with trying to remove the stress from the low back, the first thing that comes up is to align the back and spine with the back straightened leg. This ends up making their Yang style look like Wu style whenever they do a Gong Bu stance. I have also seen some people of some reputation who do Yang style who changed from straightened spine to leaning forward. When I inquired about it, in several instances, the lean was preceded by an injury to the low back or knees (arthritis for one thing). : Therefore, one explanation for several of the Yang stylists doing the lean forward can be: : (1) they are straightening the back leg too much to get that forward connection : (2) they learned incorrectly : (3) they have a low back problem that required them to change : I am sure there are other reasons as well. : Now as for Wu style, it is possible that the clothing restricted the ability to (1) straighten the back or (2) for the student to see that the back knee was NOT locked as it would be in an external style. This would then be a source for the change in Wu style to putting the back in a line with the back leg. : The way I have seen most people do this, I would tend to agree that it destroys their balance. Having said this, I would also add that most of the people I have seen do this do NOT have strong legs and do NOT keep the dynamic opposition of forces in the front and back leg. They emphasize the lean without knowing that they should align the back with the leg while at the same time keeping the power in the back leg going forward and the front leg counter balancing with force opposing the rear leg. This can and probably should be a very dynamic posture. In most people I have seen, it is not. : If a person is concerned with the applications of the movements, I would tend to agree with you. Having said that, I will also say that I do NOT personally have a great affinity for Wu style and do not know the ins and outs of this system as completely as I should...so take it with a grain of salt. : I have also noticed that with people who lean like this in Tui Sho, if they use lower stances, they are open to being dislodged forward. If they use a higher stance, the committment forward is not as noticeable and they are not as open. In all the things I have seen of Ma Yueh Liang pushing hands, he was not overly low so maybe this is how they deal with this problem. : There are indeed a lot of changes made from one generation to another that are NOT improvements. In Taijiquan done in the US, one of these changes is to avoid strenuous leg work. Leg pressing, stance training, conditioning and the like are NOT, in my opinion, bad things to train. : I have seen changes like this come from students of older teachers who were NOT really close to their teacher. At an advanced age, the teacher may practice softer, higher, less strenuously. The close student will be told something along the lines of "I am old, I can do it this way. You are young and MUST train it hard so you will make it to my age being able to practice" The less-close student does not hear this and trys to look just like the old teacher instead of what the teacher wants them to look like. Both students then go out and teach. The higher postures, being easier, will find a home and proliferate. The harder working style, while being what the style should really be, will have fewer takers since it is hard work. This is not only in Taijiquan but also in all of the external styles of martial arts as well. : : Lee, : : Windmills are indeed for jousting, Don Quixote knew that. : : Trouble is that the windmills don't care, never lose--- : : If you are squeamish about expressing your opinion in public forums : : unless it is 'positive', that's ok. But don't expect everyone to : : simply agree. Be prepared for negative attitudes towards what you hold to : : be positive. Adapt to circumstance. Apply Tai Chi principles to verbal : : altercations. : : Wu style is not an independent style. It is a derived style. : : It's distinct nature lies in changes from the original Yang style. : : I am saying, clear and loud, that the addition of leaning destroys the : : dynamics of the upright posture. It destroys, cripples--it wrecks your : : lower back, it destroys your knees. It results in walking like a chicken. : : It totally impairs turning motions, and makes upright turning momemtum useless : : for applications. : : Having said all that, and in a public forum, what do you say? : : Is the leaning of any benefit? Are the above statements false. : : Or is this indeed one of the cases where a change, a fundamental change, : : regarding posture, not only contributes no new benefits but destroys the : : benefits of what it changes? : : It is not a matter of indifference whether someone does Wu or Yang. : : The leaning is a crucial matter in Tai Chi. : : If you don't wish to deal with it, fine. If you aren't sure whether : : the leaning is important or not, fine. But, then, please stop writing : : about Tai Chi. : : I don't mind name calling, giving or receiving. Stupidity really pisses : : me off. : : S.

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