Incorrect reference

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Posted by Lee W. on January 05, 1999 at 11:59:15:

In Reply to: Chen Style? posted by S. on December 30, 1998 at 22:07:25:

your reference to Peter Lim is somewhat incorrect. From Lim:

"Because Chen Chang Xin had studied under Jiang Fa, the seniors of the Chen villiage forebade Chen Chang Xin to teach the family art of Pao Chui which they had been famous for several generations, gaining the title `Pao Chui Chen Family'. This may very well be the reason why Chen Chang Xin held his classes at night in his back court yard.

So it would seem that Chen Chang Xin's martial art would have been part Pao Chui and part Wu Dang Internal Boxing which would lend credence to the common belief first voiced by noted Taiji historian Hsu Chen that the Taijiquan we know today was Chen family Pao Chui softened by input from Jiang Fa"

Nowhere does he say that Chen Chang Xin did NOT teach Pao Chui. He was technically forbidden to do so but that does not mean he did not do it anyway in secret. I know that I personally have classmates who left before learning to a level of competency. They were told not to teach as well. There are two or three of them who have opened commercial schools and ARE teaching. Also, they are teaching what they learned from my teacher openly. The only difference here is that in modern times, laws prevent the retributions from taking place on such students. If a person taught in secret or at night 150 years ago, how would they be stopped unless someone from Chen village found out and caused trouble.

Since Yang Luchan learned after watching at night, you also CAN'T make the conclusion that he did not learn Pao Chui. Later in the same Lim reference, there is mention of Yang Luchan's "Yang 13 Pao Chui set and the Lift Legs form".

In regards to family transmission Vs. Teacher transmission, where does Lim's statement "Chen Chang Xin was much impressed with Yang's perserverance and resolved to hold nothing back and teach Yang the whole art" referring to Yang's third trip to his teacher fit in? Although many arts are held only for family members, there are also many instances where a noted teacher takes a student in tow as more or less and adopted son and treats and teaches him like a family member. Who can say that this was NOT the case with Yang Luchan.

As for the differences between Yang and Chen, well since few records of Yang Luchan's actual practice survive, same for Chen Chang Xin, Yang Ban Ho, and so forth, all we are really left with is Yang Chengfu's version and the modern Chen (some of which has been lost during the Cultural Revolution). 150 years is a long time. Long enough for a style to start as one thing and end up totally different. Look at the history of Tae Kwon Do from the 1960's in the US to American Karate of today. Only 30 to 40 years, open competitions, seminars, the Olympics, TV, etc... and you still get some major stylistic differences.

As for your question about Yang inventing Yang style - well weirder things HAVE happened. Who knows?

Your argument here is hardly up to your usual standards of gadfly.

I just thought I would drop this in since you asked me to joust at windmills.

: Heidi Ho Lee,

: Yang style is not Chen style done the wrong way. Why?
: Because Yang style is not Chen style.

: "Chen style" is Cannon Pounding done slowly in the 'forms'.

: What Yang Luchan learnt from Chen Chang Hsin was not Canon Pounding.
: Chang Hsin, according to Peter Lim's sources, was forbidden to teach
: Cannon Pounding after his public defeat by Jiang Fa and, then
: to make matters worse, his becoming a student of Jiang Fa.

: Lim quotes a Chen historian as saying that what Chang Hsin taught
: Yang Luchan was 'teacher' transmitted, not 'family' transmitted.

: Just because someone taught in Chen village, and even at one time was a
: master of Chen Cannon Pounding, does not mean that this was all he learnt
: or all he ever taught.

: Look at Chen Style, look at Yang style, is there any overlap?

: Did Yang Luchan somehow after 20 or so years of study, leave there
: with Cannon Pounding mastery and then invent Yang Style?

: S.

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Comments:
: S, : your reference to Peter Lim is somewhat incorrect. From Lim: : "Because Chen Chang Xin had studied under Jiang Fa, the seniors of the Chen villiage forebade Chen Chang Xin to teach the family art of Pao Chui which they had been famous for several generations, gaining the title `Pao Chui Chen Family'. This may very well be the reason why Chen Chang Xin held his classes at night in his back court yard. : : So it would seem that Chen Chang Xin's martial art would have been part Pao Chui and part Wu Dang Internal Boxing which would lend credence to the common belief first voiced by noted Taiji historian Hsu Chen that the Taijiquan we know today was Chen family Pao Chui softened by input from Jiang Fa" : Nowhere does he say that Chen Chang Xin did NOT teach Pao Chui. He was technically forbidden to do so but that does not mean he did not do it anyway in secret. I know that I personally have classmates who left before learning to a level of competency. They were told not to teach as well. There are two or three of them who have opened commercial schools and ARE teaching. Also, they are teaching what they learned from my teacher openly. The only difference here is that in modern times, laws prevent the retributions from taking place on such students. If a person taught in secret or at night 150 years ago, how would they be stopped unless someone from Chen village found out and caused trouble. : Since Yang Luchan learned after watching at night, you also CAN'T make the conclusion that he did not learn Pao Chui. Later in the same Lim reference, there is mention of Yang Luchan's "Yang 13 Pao Chui set and the Lift Legs form". : In regards to family transmission Vs. Teacher transmission, where does Lim's statement "Chen Chang Xin was much impressed with Yang's perserverance and resolved to hold nothing back and teach Yang the whole art" referring to Yang's third trip to his teacher fit in? Although many arts are held only for family members, there are also many instances where a noted teacher takes a student in tow as more or less and adopted son and treats and teaches him like a family member. Who can say that this was NOT the case with Yang Luchan. : As for the differences between Yang and Chen, well since few records of Yang Luchan's actual practice survive, same for Chen Chang Xin, Yang Ban Ho, and so forth, all we are really left with is Yang Chengfu's version and the modern Chen (some of which has been lost during the Cultural Revolution). 150 years is a long time. Long enough for a style to start as one thing and end up totally different. Look at the history of Tae Kwon Do from the 1960's in the US to American Karate of today. Only 30 to 40 years, open competitions, seminars, the Olympics, TV, etc... and you still get some major stylistic differences. : As for your question about Yang inventing Yang style - well weirder things HAVE happened. Who knows? : Your argument here is hardly up to your usual standards of gadfly. : I just thought I would drop this in since you asked me to joust at windmills. : : Heidi Ho Lee, : : Yang style is not Chen style done the wrong way. Why? : : Because Yang style is not Chen style. : : "Chen style" is Cannon Pounding done slowly in the 'forms'. : : What Yang Luchan learnt from Chen Chang Hsin was not Canon Pounding. : : Chang Hsin, according to Peter Lim's sources, was forbidden to teach : : Cannon Pounding after his public defeat by Jiang Fa and, then : : to make matters worse, his becoming a student of Jiang Fa. : : Lim quotes a Chen historian as saying that what Chang Hsin taught : : Yang Luchan was 'teacher' transmitted, not 'family' transmitted. : : Just because someone taught in Chen village, and even at one time was a : : master of Chen Cannon Pounding, does not mean that this was all he learnt : : or all he ever taught. : : Look at Chen Style, look at Yang style, is there any overlap? : : Did Yang Luchan somehow after 20 or so years of study, leave there : : with Cannon Pounding mastery and then invent Yang Style? : : S.

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